The Church and the Jews

What a striking work! Inspiring! And also quite different from Jewish Messianic literature today.

Two things struck me when reading these papers. First, the emphasis on Christianity. And second, their certainty of the coming kingdom of God.

Here’s a snippet:

“From my youth up I have been occupied with religious problems and eventually I came to the conviction that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah of Israel and the Redeemer of the world.

This conviction did not lead me away from my Jewish people. On the contrary, it unfolded for me the unique significance of Israel in the Divine purpose.

I have walked on many paths, of life, of faith, of politics, and of the spirit. They were needed in order to gather experience. Much vanished as unessential, much appeared as of importance, but one thing alone took entire possession of me: Jewish Christianity.

If the Divine revelation to Israel is an objective reality and if Jesus is the promised Messiah, then the present day Jewish-Christian movement is of great historical significance and a sign of the times.

This I believe to be the case.

I want to tell my brethren that we Jewish Christians have not forsaken or betrayed our people, but remain true to it in all its dangers and necessities. We love our people and will never grow weary of striving to obtain its confidence.

Consistent Jewish Christians are at present without a home in the world, but theirs is the future.

In this faith we speak and act. To have this faith means beholding the spiritual, seeking the eternal in time, and living and working in the present for the future. Our gaze is not fixed upon our own day only, but upon the centuries. We look to the end.

The apostles of the New Testament as well as the prophets of the Old Testament were convinced that the “remnant” of Israel will be saved.

When this will take place we do not know, but we do know that God knows it, and so we can leave the when and the how to Him. It is for us to sow; others, who will come after, will reap. We have neither begun the work, nor shall we finish it. At all times, and in all lands, there have been Jewish Christians, like the “Nicodemus Jews,” the secret believers in Palestine to-day. They did not appear publicly, none knew of them, for the time was not yet ripe.

But to-day the time is fulfilled, and the flag with the Cross in the Star of David is flying.

Joseph Rabinowitz and his circle fulfilled the task in their day; we fulfill it in ours, and they who come after us will fulfill it in the future, until the time shall come which shall call Israel to its highest task and bring the hour of final fulfillment…

But all of us are built upon that foundation of all time and of all eternity: Jesus the Christ. Here is the root of our strength, here is the secret of that power which has worked through the centuries and which will conquer in the future.

Whether some smile, and others shake their heads, and the rest say it is impossible, we go on our way undeterred to the End. For we know that the Christ always does the impossible and He is a “tireless Hunter”. We see the light in the darkness and the day in the night, the rainbow of peace above the storms of time, the Sign in the Heavens as the promise of Victory.”

Jews that believe in Yeshua in modern times, going by the name Messianic Jews, very often refrain from associating themselves with Christianity. Many of us like to view ourselves apart from pagan and defiled Christianity. For better or worse, this was not so with some of the early pioneers of modern Messianic Judaism who, by any measure, were Jewish Christians who saw themselves as part of the fulfillment of the restoration of Israel, fully embodied within Christianity.

As I read these old reprinted materials from Jewish Christians in the 1930s, ‘40s, and ‘50s, I started to realize just how lacking we are today, to understate the matter. Our faith life is junk compared to these men and women. It’s our turn, it’s our time to fulfill that time of Israel restoration! And what have we done? Most of us have been found off to the side, bickering and dividing ourselves until we’re just a bunch of small, easily conquerable Republic of Daves, Kingdom of Toms. What a shame we have wasted so much of our time with infighting.

Here they were, before the recreation of the state of Israel, at a time when most believed God was done with the Jews, with persecution coming from both Judaism and Christianity; here they remained firm in their identity, certain of God’s plan and coming kingdom, rejoicing in what’s to come. Not focused on various doctrinal errors or pagan influences, but rejoicing in what God’s doing.

Maybe I’m being too Grandpa Tevye, maybe I’m thinking the grass is always greener. But a casual reading of these papers reveals a hope and certainty I don’t have. I’m envious.

47 comments:

  1. I held my breath as I read this. And said a prayer, and I hope deep within that I can in some way contribute to Israel's restoration. All I know is my personal faith and joyous gratitude to be a part of something so big as God's work in the earth. Its so inspiring. I do believe without a doubt that we (believers) have not done what has been before us, but there are those, (FFOZ comes to mind) that are definitely putting in work...

    but your right bro, it is our time......I'm a Gentile and I myself won't stand by the side lines....I'm going to volunteer or something, lol, these are exciting times! Thanks for sharing bro, shalom

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  2. The good news is that we're beginning to see some fruit from this generation. I know folks like J.K. McKee and the FFOZ organization have been laboring towards unity and focusing on God's kingdom rather than busying themselves with infighting. That's progress.

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  3. There's very little infighting within the actually JEWISH Messianic Judaism. We are certainly much more united than not.

    At the same time, Most Messianic Jews [the NON-wannabe non-"lost tribers" kind) I know do not consider Two-House / One-Law / British Israelites / Worldwide Church of God / Christian Identity folks as part of either Israel or Judaism (of any kind), but many of us are actively confronting their preposterous, imposterous, and damaging ideologies whenever and wherever we encounter them, including if we spot them inside our own congregations (should poor souls stumble in). So, there's no need to talk about some imaginary "in-fighting".

    We indeed look forward to the restoration of Israel, but this restoration will be quite different from what the "prophetess" Batya Wooten has envisioned and MIA folks ate up.

    Shalom...

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  4. Gene, talk to the FFOZ guys -- they visit congregations all over the US, including standard MJAA fare, and they'll tell you about the many splits in congregations they witnessed, many of them over doctrinal issues.

    All:

    One thing I'd like to hear discussed is the view of our faith as Jewish Christianity. It seems many of the early pioneers and luminaries of modern Messianic Judaism saw this faith as Jewish Christianity. What do you guys think of that?

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  5. Judah... Just last Shabbat I spoke to a Jewish guy who started attending our synagogue few weeks ago. His old place split over the Two House thing.

    In any case, I am not talking about individual congregational splits (some of which happen over color of carpet). I am talking about something MUCH wider.

    "One thing I'd like to hear discussed is the view of our faith as Jewish Christianity. It seems many of the early pioneers and luminaries of modern Messianic Judaism saw this faith as Jewish Christianity. What do you guys think of that?"

    I sympathize with them. At the time they viewed Judaism, based on the historical assessment of the times they lived in, as an utterly failed or at least a great corrupted faith system. This is why they shunned the "Judaism" label, in my opinion. They saw historical Christianity as triumphant, and sought ways to adopt some Jewish practices to it. Many of them came to faith through this same Christianity. Those of us in MJ who are not into "One-Law" allow for a bilateral view of Ekkesia - we can have Gentile and Jewish parts of the Body. In that way, it's perfectly acceptable to have "Gentile Christianity" and "Jewish Christianity" (or "Messianity").

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  6. I have a huge problem with this, frankly.

    As a member of the resurrected sect of Nazarene Judaism, I have a huge problem with considering Christianity as a good thing.

    Christianity, in short, is a false replacement for Judaism - and the fact that these certain Jews call themselves "Jewish Christians" means they gave into this replacement theology.

    I also have a huge problem with Gene's statement:
    "Those of us in MJ who are not into "One-Law" allow for a bilateral view of Ekkesia - we can have Gentile and Jewish parts of the Body. In that way, it's perfectly acceptable to have "Gentile Christianity" and "Jewish Christianity" (or "Messianity")."

    This is what is called "one faith, two expression" theology. Meaning Christian Gentiles are Christian Gentiles (or "Messianic Christians") within the "body of Messiah", while believing Jews are "Messianic Jews". Two different expressions for one "faith" in Jesus and/or Yeshua.

    Nazarene Judaism rejects this doctrine and holds that all goyim who come to HaRav Yeshua as Mashiahh are first held to the standard of the Noahhide Laws (while they learn the Torah weekly on Shabath), which is akin to betrothal, and then after learning the implementing the Torah, they will eventually convert to Nazarene Judaism (t'vilah in a miqwah, males circumcised) making themselves Israelites and subject to the entirety of the Toroth.

    Rabi James Trimm gives his first 4 points of the One True Faith/Religion which address this issue:

    1. Is the ONLY true faith.
    (Eph. 4:3-6)
    COMMENTS: There are not multiple true faiths. Christianity and Judaism are not both true saving faiths, only one of them is a true faith. The other is a false religion.

    2. Was once and for all time delivered to the set-apart ones. (Jude 1:3)
    COMMENTS: The one true faith is not a "new replacement" faith which
    replaces an older obsolete faith. (As Christians believe that "Christianity" has
    replaced "Judaism" as the true saving faith).

    3. Is Jewish.
    (Jn. 4:22; Zech. 8:23; Acts 23:6; Acts 25:8; Rom. 3:1-2)
    COMMENTS: The one true faith is a form of Judaism.

    4. Is the sect of the Nazarenes.
    (Acts 24:5, 14)
    COMMENTS: The one true faith is the Nazarene Sect of Judaism.

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  7. It's worth nothing that these early pioneers did not know of a Messianic Judaism or a Nazarene Judaism. I don't fault them, then, for considering themselves Jewish Christianity when there was little or no alternative.

    Whatever the proper set of theologies and beliefs, I'm looking forward to God's planned restoration of Israel and the work he's doing among the nations to bring us back to His ways.

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  8. Judah,

    True, that is good to take into consideration.

    Another thing I want to mention regarding this is that I even see the Protestant reformation being a good thing in its time, since it was a move toward the truth. The only problem is that it didn't move all the way toward the truth but stopped; therefore it failed - but was a good step in some way at least.

    I believe the Messianic movement is further step in the right direction; and there are many sects of it, so it cannot be generalized so easily. FFOZ, for example, is one I'm pretty fond of.

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  9. "COMMENTS: The one true faith is the Nazarene Sect of Judaism."

    Aaron, every time I hear that someone's little sect is the "one true faith"... I don't get very good imagery in my mind (cultish, mostly), for some reason.

    BTW, I've read up much on "rabbi" James Trimm over the years (including his own writings) - even if a tiny, minuscule, itzy-bitzy fraction of the stuff widely reported about him is true - people should start running in opposite direction, much less quote him as authority on something relevant.

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  10. Despite faults, and I'm sure he has them, James Trimm has devoted his time towards teaching God's ways and building the kingdom. I thank God for him.

    I thank God that he is using leaders to advance His kingdom, even if they faulter or have differing theologies. I include folks like the MJTI Rabbi Dauermann in this group.

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  11. Hey Judah,

    Been monitoring your blog from my vacation this week. I am glad you are challenging your readers. Hopefully when I get home I can find more time to contribute some of my own thoughts.

    Until then, a fizzy brownish liquid awaits me!

    JKM

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  12. Ok, J.K., enjoy your vacation and that brown liquid of yours! :-)

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  13. Should we thank G-d for Joseph Smith, Rev. Moon, Herbert W. Armstrong, Benny Hinn, Ellen White, and countless others? Not everyone who is a "leader" is working to build up the Kingdom - instead, some (if not most) leave heaps of rubble in their wake and build up mostly their own little "kingdoms". I know that you are currently in your "I am OK, you're OK, Kumbaya" phase, but please don't lump everyone into one benevolent group. Some (many) "teachers" out there are false and the Bible warns us about them. Our responsibility is to discern and warn others, and not simply focus only the supposed and arguable "good" contributions these people may have made.

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  14. Should we thank G-d for Joseph Smith, Rev. Moon...

    No. Thanks for asking, though!

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  15. "Our gaze is not fixed upon our own day only, but upon the centuries. We look to the end."

    All of these guys had this in view. It is a common theme in all of their writings.

    I just completed my initial reading of the future work, True Faith Strengthened. In the intro R"Lichenstien spans 300 years of debate and discussion on the topic of Messiah. It is amazing and compelling. To think that this testimony will be added to our discussions today is moving.

    As I said, each of these guys had a view of latter generations. On Rabbi Lichetenstien's grave he requested.

    Here rests a disciple of Yeshua the Messiah,

    A brother in the spirit of the church of Jerusalem

    Yechiel Lichtenstein

    May his writings be a blessing to all.

    Speaking of beer...It is good day when the only kosher food you can find is Ben & Jerry's
    ice cream and the only WIFI connection in a Irish pub.

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  16. Hey Boaz.

    "All of these guys had this in view. It is a common theme in all of their writings."

    Telling.

    "I just completed my initial reading of the future work, True Faith Strengthened. In the intro R"Lichenstien spans 300 years of debate and discussion on the topic of Messiah. It is amazing and compelling. To think that this testimony will be added to our discussions today is moving."

    Indeed. Just skimming some of the materials on Vine of David had me thinking, "man, there is something big here."

    Thanks for the work you guys are doing. Enjoy the beer and ice cream! :-D

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  17. Regarding Gene's apparent dislike for Nazarene Judaism:

    Unlike you and the mainstream Messianic Jewish movement, which does virtually nothing to research ancient Judaism, nor makes a real effort to follow the halakhoth of HaRav Yeshua but instead is a watered down version of modern Judaism mixed with Christianity (sounds pretty nasty to me) - Nazarene Judaism has been restored and is being restored based on the understanding of ancient Judaism of Yeshua's day and around that time, and the beliefs of the original followers of HaRav Yeshua. This study is focused primarily in the understanding of Pharisaic and Essene Judaism and their blatant influences and similarities with the original followers of HaRav Yeshua who all came from those backgrounds.

    And by the way, "Messianic" is a term transliterated in the Aramaic texts from the Greek word "Chrestian" (later being re-termed "Christian") that was used by gentiles for gentile believers. Nazarene is a term used for all believers based upon the title of Mashiahh as Netser from Is. 11:1.

    In actuality, the Messianic movement is more like a man-made modern movement not really based whatsoever on the understanding of the second Temple period.

    But I know there are many within many different denominations of Messianism who are generally headed in the right direction, so I don't go out getting caught up over titles with the individual. However in cases like this when someone says something that prompts a response "you have no idea what you're talking about", I must defend the established Nazarene sect.

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  18. Here's my short summary of the modern Nazarene "Judaism":

    A movement recently started and populated by Gentile Christians (most coming from Two-House / One Law Hebrew Roots) who believe that by virtue of their "practicing" Nazarene "Judaism" they are now Jews (replacement theology 101). They believe that the actual REAL Jews (Messianic or not) have corrupted and paganized Judaism, while they (the Gentile former Christians) have the real deal and have now restored Judaism of Yeshua's day to its former glory. While denying that they are following "traditions of men", they invent and follow their own traditions (or borrow some from "rabbinical" Judaism as they see fit) based on what they THINK (through "research") they know the "original" Judaism of Yeshua's day observed.

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  19. While there are some good things about Nazarene Judaism, some of the worst heresies have come out of this movement. In the last year they have taught polygamy, that Jesus was a leaper and the whole wheat unleavened bread doctrine. They also hate Christianity with a vengence and if you use the name Jesus, God or Christ they say that you are worshipping Zeus or some other Babylonian or Roman God. The movement started out with good intentions and was teaching a loot of Christians about Torah etc but they have been Hijacked by charlatans who only think of their sexual appetite.

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  20. The polygamy fiasco of 2008 was done by a group going under the name "Nazarene", yet they have nothing to do with the Nazarene movement as headed by Trimm, who's refuted the polygamists.

    I tell ya what, guys, I look forward to the time when Messiah will set us all straight and restore Israel. May it be soon, and in our day, before it gets any worse down here!

    Shabbat shalom, guys.

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  21. >Should we thank G-d for Joseph >Smith, Rev. Moon...

    >No. Thanks for asking, though!

    Better re-think that one. Not thanking God for something???

    I seem to remember a little scripture, (Ephesians 5:20 NASB) always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father;

    Did not God use these men to test the hearts of men in the earth. To see if men would seek God and truth rather that seek leaders and vain theologies.

    Think about it.

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  22. Judah I agree that different groups can claim to be something that they are not. As someone looking in from the outside (I am a gentile Christian) I am sometimes confused about what Messianic Judaism really. Each group I see are claiming that they are the one true form of messianic Judaism and all others are false group. Some claim you can only be part of it if you are Jewish, other say you must keep Torah to be saved, Other say that you must use the true names otherwise you are in fact worshipping a false God. I am not claiming nor do I want to define Messianic Judaism but I believe that those who are part of it need to define what exactly they mean by Messianic Judaism as each time someone uses the term they mean something completely different to someone else.

    By the way I enjoyed what you wrote in this blog about the Church and the Jews. I enjoy reading and learning from those in the messianic movement but on many occasions I have felt like walking away from it all after being called a pagan for the 100th time because I still go to Church. I believe that we all need more humility and understanding while we learn from each other how to live out our faith in a better way.

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  23. Judah,

    "I read these old reprinted materials from Jewish Christians in the 1930s, ‘40s, and ‘50s, I started to realize just how lacking we are today, to understate the matter. Our faith life is junk compared to these men and women."

    Christians have always latched onto bits of doctrine and allowed that doctrine to divide, things like baptismal regeneration, speaking in tongues, hymns versus contemporary Christian music, etc. I am convinced that Jesus desires better things for his body than his hand cutting off His foot.

    There are many things that Catholics believe that are contrary to what I believe, so it has been my tendency to dismiss them. Recently I have read some things by a couple of Catholic authors and thought, "wow, this is really good." I don't know if they represent the mainstream of Catholic belief and I don't agree with everything I read, but I have come to the realization that no one group has the corner on truth.

    I know that I don't have the corner on truth and, as I have stated in the past, I am willing and open for God to change my mind. I think that there is a danger in denominations and movements and sects...they tend close the mind, close communication and inhibit fellowship. This isn't about accepting bad behaviors or buying into errant doctrines, it is about bearing with one another in love. It is about encouraging one another to grow in grace and knowledge of God, not tearing down or belittling the other. It is then that we are drawn together. When we get to heaven I believe we are going to look back and see what fools we have been.

    Gary

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  24. Judah,

    Some how my comment on what I quoted got lost...weird.

    "I read these old reprinted materials from Jewish Christians in the 1930s, ‘40s, and ‘50s, I started to realize just how lacking we are today, to understate the matter. Our faith life is junk compared to these men and women."

    I have been reading about some of the Christians living in the 19th Century...people like J. Hudson Taylor, George Mueller, Robert Chapman, etc. It is amazing to read about their faith in God and how God provided and blessed others through them. It is something I think is lacking today.

    Gary

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  25. On Gene's supposedly "accurate" summary of Nazarene Judaism, I have this to correct:

    -Nazarene Judaism actually follows the Acts 15 process for returning gentiles, instead of being under the "one faith two expression" deception of mainstream Messianic Judaism and not properly causing gentiles to Judaize (convert themselves to Judaism) and become Israelites in the fullness of Torah.

    This is not replacement theology; we believe all racial Jews are racially Jewish, and all modern Orthodox Jews follow Judaism. We are not set on replacing them by any means. Now mainstream Messianic "Judaism" will say gentile Christians are the "body of Messiah", which we do not believe, and believe Christianity and all forms of it are nothing but anti-Torah, anti-Judaistic, and counterfeit replacements themselves.

    -Nazarene Judaism believes in an oral instruction, some of which was passed from Moshe and the original court of elders. We believe it is preserved in the Pharisaic recording of it, the Talmud, and among the Essene recording of it and other things among the Dead Sea scrolls. We intend to continue restoring proper observance and halakha. Mainstream Messianic Judaism doesn't really attempt to do this whatsoever.

    Gene said:
    "What they [the Nazarenes] THINK (through "research")"

    You shouldn't even comment on this since your sect does nothing much to restore even an original Talmudic observance but instead adapts its observances from the source of modern Judaism.
    I know of Jews who have adopted an original Talmudic observance, and what they do is great, in my opinion, and is quite different from what is normally modernly observed.

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  26. Peter,

    I sympathize with you. What you said about every little group among Messianics claiming to be the authentic faith. All the "pagan" bashing. I know. I've been part of that. Sorry for that. I wrote as much in A Pragmatic Messianic Judaism.

    I hope you will find the Messianic movement maturing in the coming years. I know God is helping us toward this goal as we look to the end, toward the restoration of Israel and coming Kingdom of God.

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  27. Gary, you said,

    This isn't about accepting bad behaviors or buying into errant doctrines, it is about bearing with one another in love. It is about encouraging one another to grow in grace and knowledge of God, not tearing down or belittling the other. It is then that we are drawn together. When we get to heaven I believe we are going to look back and see what fools we have been.

    Man, that's it exactly. It is good to hear someone else say that.

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  28. Peter,

    I don't know if you have read it before (it is a bit "dated" at over 18 months), but do take the time to read through my article "How Are We to Live as Modern Messianics?"

    http://tnnonline.net/theonews/messianic-issues/modern-messianics/index.html

    This directly takes on a lot of the "Christianity is pagan" nonsense, and really does try to give us some important hints as to how we can be transformed into a force of God's holiness and righteousness.

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  29. Gary....

    "This isn't about accepting bad behaviors or buying into errant doctrines, it is about bearing with one another in love."

    I am all for accepting and loving one another. However, there comes a time when one must take a stand against those who lead others astray. Did not the apostle Paul himself wrote the following:

    "As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!" (Galatians 5:12)

    Very strong words... they seem to be not very kind, not uplifting, not loving, and certainly not very encouraging to those on the receiving end, the perpetrators of confusion.

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  30. Gene,

    Paul was addressing a salvation issue.

    Gene, your zeal for your particular set of theologies is an astounding zeal. But it has caused you to tear down people over theological differences unrelated to salvation.

    Yes, there are legitimate differences in theology and doctrine at times, but often of more concern is the animosity created between those brothers in Messiah with different theologies. Sometimes the animosity created is worse than the thing you’re opposing.

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  31. Judah...

    "Gene, your zeal for your particular set of theologies is an astounding zeal. But it has caused you to tear down people over theological differences unrelated to salvation."

    A lot of what I address here (but not ALL of it) DOES pertain to salvation. For example, Aaron, who advocates here for his Nazarene Judaism, wrote the following in his post above:

    "Now mainstream Messianic "Judaism" will say gentile Christians are the "body of Messiah", which we do not believe"

    Clearly, Aaron is talking about salvation here. Either you are part of the Body, or you're lost. But Aaron is not the only one holding these beliefs. Many Hebrew Roots/Sacred Namers/One-Law/Nazarene groups view believers in churches (and probably in mainstream Messianic Judaism) as lost pagans.

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  32. Gene,

    Aaron did not say Christians are not saved. It isn't a salvation issue.

    Gene, your zeal for your particular set of theologies is an astounding zeal. But it has caused you to tear down people over theological differences unrelated to salvation.

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  33. "Aaron did not say Christians are not saved. It isn't a salvation issue."

    Judah... OK, sure, whatever - may be we are reading blog postings in parallel universes. We'll let others here decided.

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  34. Gene, if Aaron comes in here and clarifies, I would hope you will privately consider the things I've said to you.

    Shalom and love in Messiah to you, Gene.

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  35. Judah said "I hope you will find the Messianic movement maturing in the coming years. I know God is helping us toward this goal as we look to the end, toward the restoration of Israel and coming Kingdom of God."

    Thankyou very much for your kind words.

    The one thing I have found has been that Jews who become part of the messianic movement are a lot more tolerant of christians than former christians who become part of it. While there are many things in Christianity that I have problems with it does not mean that all christians are pagans.

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  36. J.K. McKee thankyou for your article. I hope to read it soon.

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  37. Aharon said "Now mainstream Messianic "Judaism" will say gentile Christians are the "body of Messiah", which we do not believe, and believe Christianity and all forms of it are nothing but anti-Torah, anti-Judaistic, and counterfeit replacements themselves."

    My understanding of what Aharon said is that Christians are not believers or part of the body of faith. Basically what he is saying is that unless you are part of Nazarene Judaism then you are lost. Maybe I am wrong in my interpretation of what Aharon said (and I hope I am wrong). If I'm wrong then Aharon you need to need to reword what you have just wrote.

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  38. I think Aaron, like Gene, can be overzealous in his words sometimes. I know Aaron -- he's my younger brother -- and I know he believes faith in Yeshua makes one saved. But rather than add a 3rd interpretation of his words, I'll let Aaron speak for himself (and eat my words if necessary! ;-))

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  39. Assembly of Y" is the "Body of Messiah". It is called Body of Messiah when referring to the Heavenly Yeshua as Adam Kadmon - therefore this term is often misunderstood, but it is still referring to the Assembly of Y", which is the same as the Assembly of Israel - and there has only ever been ONE Assembly.

    Now that we have that straight...

    I was about to post another response, but I decided to cut out a lot and make it pithy and to the point. This follows a very easy form of logic and is undeniably and clearly proved by the Tanakh and Khethuvei Netsarim:

    Premise 1:
    All members of the "Assembly of Israel" must eat the Passover (Ex. 12:47)

    Premise 2:
    No uncircumcised man may eat the Passover (Ex. 12:48)

    Argument::
    If all members of the Assembly of Israel must eat the Passover
    and if no uncircumcised men may eat the Passover
    then all male members of the Assembly of Israel must be circumcised.

    Conclusion:
    All male members of the Assembly of Israel are circumcised.

    Corollary:
    No male members of the Assembly of Israel are uncircumcised.

    Premise 3:
    Some uncircumcised men are saved (Acts 15)

    Argument:
    If all members of the Assembly of Israel are circumcised and if some uncircumcised men are saved,
    then some saved persons are not members of the Assembly of Israel.

    Conclusion:
    Some saved persons are not members of the Assembly of Israel.


    -After being saved by accepting HaRav Yeshua, you are thereby betrothed. You should make sure you are keeping the Noahide Laws and learning the Torah weekly.

    -To become married and a part of Kehilath Y" (i.e. become an Israelite), you will become circumcised and Torah observant at your conversion to Judaism.

    Some people really need to redefine their terms!

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  40. "Basically what he is saying is that unless you are part of Nazarene Judaism then you are lost."

    If this will seriously continue to be anyone's interpretation of my words after the previous two above posts, then there's no point in continuing to argue, haha.

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  41. Thanks for clarifying, Aaron.

    Gene, now that Aaron has clarified, I would hope you will privately consider the things I've said to you.

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  42. "Some saved persons are not members of the Assembly of Israel....Some uncircumcised men are saved (Acts 15)"

    Yes, Aaron - these uncircumcised saved people are called "Gentiles". And they are not "some", they are the other (and MUCH bigger) half of the One New Man and part of Messiah's Body. They are also called the "wild branches".

    "Gene, now that Aaron has clarified, I would hope you will privately consider the things I've said to you."

    Judah... I always consider everything you and everyone else here says. This is what having a conversation is all about.

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  43. Judah, I personally have no issue discussing these issues in no matter what level of emotion it seems to be in.

    On this end, and perhaps on Gene's end as well, we are completely calm. I don't personally have a problem with Gene, I just think the doctrines he holds to are wrong and untrue at times. This is not to say I have never been an upholder of false doctrine. I used to believe lots of things I would now even consider "heretical" according to my beliefs.

    The only thing is if people are constantly seeking truth. If one of my beliefs was proven wrong by the Tanakh or authoritative writings, I would renounce it and change my view. I am only interested in the truth.

    I think there may have been a purposed change in argument to try to make me look like a big and bad condemning person, but with the limited explanation given, it could have been taken many ways - so I explained, and I have nothing wrong with that.

    I do not personally believe Gene is evil, nor that he is misintentioned, really, he carries a great zeal for his beliefs as do I - and we are only debating them, I hope based on Tanakh and Jewish understanding primarily.

    Nor do I believe Gene is "unsaved" or not part of the "body of Messiah". I don't know what the case is, but in my best estimation, he is both; only, in my opinion, confused on some issues. Of course he and others think the same of me. What better thing than to debate and argue, then?

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  44. I said:
    "Some saved persons are not members of the Assembly of Israel....Some uncircumcised men are saved (Acts 15)"

    Gene said:
    "Yes, Aaron - these uncircumcised saved people are called "Gentiles". And they are not "some", they are the other (and MUCH bigger) half of the One New Man and part of Messiah's Body. They are also called the "wild branches"."

    Sure, they are gentiles, but they are not the "body of the Messiah" which is the Assembly - they are not yet that as I clearly proved!

    If they were the assembly of Israel, they would be circumcised and eligible, by Torah, to celebrate the Pesahh.
    You can't just take part of my proof which I bolded and disregard the rest!

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  45. We all agree it's not a salvation issue,

    And thus we shouldn't wish emasculation on fellow brothers in Messiah.

    That I had to actually utter those words speaks volumes about the state of the Messianic movement and our immaturity.

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  46. To every false accusation and unrighteous curse there is a response and justice from HaQadhosh Barukh Hu.

    Since one of the forms of our mind's concepts is writing, it certainly carries a weight with it. Perhaps not as powerful as spoken word, but still carrying a weight. This one is marked.

    Din w'gevurah,
    -Aaron

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